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Being a liberal Republican, it is meet* for me to state my stance on Ron Paul.
I believe that Ron Paul would be a terrible President for the reasons cited here. Most prominently among these are:
Citations for Ron Paul's support of each of these are in the link.
* "Meet" meaning suitable, proper, appropriate. It's standard.
I believe that Ron Paul would be a terrible President for the reasons cited here. Most prominently among these are:
- The gold standard would lead to economic turmoil (not to mention devastate industries which use gold),
- The abolition of the income tax would cripple the federal government,
- A law to prevent the Supreme Court from ruling on an issue is un-American, even when it is not explicitly intended to bolster prejudice,
Racism - be it against black men in DC or immigrants throughout America - is wrong,(edit: I cannot defend this claim; I withdraw it.) and- Undermining modern medicine would destroy millions of lives in the most brutal fashion.
Citations for Ron Paul's support of each of these are in the link.
* "Meet" meaning suitable, proper, appropriate. It's standard.
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lol
What's your backup for this? Our fiat money is already leading to economic turmoil - the dollar is nearly worthless and getting more worthless by the day
* The abolition of the income tax would cripple the federal government - That's not true at all, speaking in terms of Ron Paul the federal government wouldn't need anywhere near as much money to operate with him in office
* A law to prevent the Supreme Court from ruling on an issue is un-American, even when it is not explicitly intended to bolster prejudice
And it's unconstitutional (if you forgot, the constitution is about as american as you get) for the supreme court to make decisions on matters the federal government has no constitutional right to control
* Racism - be it against black men in DC or immigrants throughout America - is wrong, and
I don't understand? Paul isn't anywhere close to a racist, what's this worthless comment about? If you're referring to the thread you read, those comments weren't even written by Ron Paul, but a ghost writer and he's been dismissing them for 10+ years
* Undermining modern medicine would destroy millions of lives in the most brutal fashion.
This one might be the stupidest. Modern medicine is ALREADY being undermined by the disaster of a system we have in place now. Our system is controlled by corporations who keep the price of medicine so outrageously high that we have to rely on a broken health insurance system to afford it. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say.
Basically all of your "reasons" for being against Ron Paul are a result of a lifetime of brainwashing by a corrupt government that doesn't give a crap about you. Paul isn't controlled by corporate interests or lobbyists and speaks it like it is. Try doing some real research on him rather than believing a thread of half-truths on some message board.
Re: lol
* Gold standard: To some extent, it's common sense - if the government is required to have a large stockpile of gold on hand, then the supply of gold for industrial purposes (e.g. corrosion-resistant electrical contacts) will be greatly decreased, increasing prices. Not to mention that the government has to come up with the gold somehow. A quick Googling turned up this analysis (http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/GoldStandard.html) from an actual economist - which is less about impracticality with simple improbability.
* Income taxes: Of the $2.4 trillion the U.S. government received in 2006, $1 trillion came from personal income taxes (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/summarytables.html). That's an absurd amount of money to cut from the budget - so large that I am unable to believe it could be practicably done.
* Racism: In deference to the weakness of my case, I'll drop the argument.
* Undermining modern medicine: Supporting alternative medicine and eliminating mandatory vaccinations (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/health-freedom/) both do this. Unapproved treatments (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-2717&tab=summary) are often bogus. And while our health care system is broken, the fix is not by encouraging the use of unproven medical treatments, but by - I hate to say it - universal health care.
Basically all of your "reasons" for being against Ron Paul are a result of a lifetime of brainwashing by a corrupt government that doesn't give a crap about you.
Citations, please?
Re: lol
Look, I'm not going to sit here and argue that the gold standard is the end all be all solution to economic problems but lets face it, the current system is a disaster that has put the US in trillions of dollars of debt to foreign countries on money loaned through a secretive organization who has no accountability to the american people... that's a disaster.
* Income taxes: Of the $2.4 trillion the U.S. government received in 2006, $1 trillion came from personal income taxes. That's an absurd amount of money to cut from the budget - so large that I am unable to believe it could be practicably done.
Well, it could be done in Ron Paul's plan, whether you agree with it or not, bringing the troops home from everywhere across the world and cutting many of the worthless federal agencies would save that kind of money with ease
* Racism: In deference to the weakness of my case, I'll drop the argument.
* Undermining modern medicine: Supporting alternative medicine and eliminating mandatory vaccinations both do this. Unapproved treatments are often bogus. And while our health care system is broken, the fix is not by encouraging the use of unproven medical treatments, but by - I hate to say it - universal health care.
All I'll say to this is once you realize the FDA isn't there to serve the greater good for the American people you will realize why Paul's plan makes sense. The current system doesn't protect anybody from ineffective treatments or harmful treatments, it's a race to who can bribe the FDA fast enough to get an approval so they can rape the American public with crushing drug prices. If you love socialized health care so much you should do some research into how medicine is handled in socialized countries - they do just fine without bureaucracy managing their medicine to the extent that the FDA does.
Re: lol
Look, I'm not going to sit here and argue that the gold standard is the end all be all solution to economic problems but lets face it, the current system is a disaster that has put the US in trillions of dollars of debt to foreign countries on money loaned through a secretive organization who has no accountability to the american people... that's a disaster.
One, you're ranting like a conspiracy theorist (http://xkcd.com/258/). Two, our trade deficit originates in many factors, none of which I am qualified to identify (although I suspect one contributor is that we lack the protections for domestic industry necessary to support the protections for domestic labor).
Well, it could be done in Ron Paul's plan, whether you agree with it or not, bringing the troops home from everywhere across the world and cutting many of the worthless federal agencies would save that kind of money with ease
I prefer not to descend to crudity of language, so instead I will merely indicate that your claim is absurd. In 2006, the total mandatory outlay of the government was 1.4 trillion (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/summarytables.html) - in other words, everything that would have remained after abolishing income taxes. Note that, for example, the entire judicial branch is excluded from this accounting.
All I'll say to this is once you realize the FDA isn't there to serve the greater good for the American people you will realize why Paul's plan makes sense.
Citations, please - both for the above and your 'brainwashing' crack.
Re: lol
And it's unconstitutional (if you forgot, the constitution is about as american as you get) for the supreme court to make decisions on matters the federal government has no constitutional right to control
Which is something they have not done and show no signs of being about to do (at least regarding the issue in question).
Re: lol
Re: lol
A warning: if you fail either to identify yourself (that I may address you as a fellow individual) or to show some sign of willingness to defend, rather than merely propound, your views (that I may address you as a fellow debater of issues), then I may no longer offer you the courtesy of spamming my space with your comments. I am willing to be disagreed with, but - as long as I control this space - only by those willing to respect my capacity for honest reason.
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You cited corrosion-resistant electrical contacts as one such industry. I have experience in at least one industry where some misguided individuals use such contacts: RF television. Gold-plated RJ59 connectors are garbage. The only situation in which they could conceivably do any favors for signal quality is being left outside, exposed to the elements, in a crap splice. We used good-quality, standard aluminum connectors. In situations where they would be exposed to the elements for some reason, we simply added a little bit of silicon grease to the connector, and then wrapped it with electrical tape. Such a connection typically had about a 5 year lifetime.
There are some industries which legitimately use gold (high quality optical visors, satellites, etc. come to mind). But, I think the worldwide gold supply is relatively abundant, and such uses are relatively minimal. If a return to the gold standard did create some kind of crippling shortage, why wouldn't you expect new materials to be developed to replace its use in those industries?
I don't see it creating any further economic turmoil than the sort we're currently experiencing. If anything, I would expect it to stabilize the economy in the longer run. For example, you do realize that the continued increase in price for petroleum -- which is driving increased costs in industries across the economic spectrum -- is due in largest part to the continued devaluation of the dollar?
> The abolition of the income tax would cripple the federal government,
It would cripple the federal government in its current incarnation. The government might then be forced to, oh, I dunno, stop running an expansionist empire? The alternative is that our government continues to operate as though it has a blank check and unlimited credit, and continue to spend frivolously out of the wages of the people who are both least able to afford it and least able to protest it.
If nothing else, so far as I care, the widespread continued abuse of the funds provided to it totally justifies reducing the government's income. If my kid ran up a debt on my credit card, the last thing I'd do is hand them another one.
> A law to prevent the Supreme Court from ruling on an issue is un-American, even when it is not explicitly intended to bolster prejudice,
Specifically, this references an ongoing debate between states rights and federal powers. I think it was somewhat dishonest to present the question this way; he isn't seeking to prevent the Supreme Court from ruling on all issues, he's seeking to keep them out of state business.
Lacking references at this time, I'm pretty sure that Paul has addressed this already. He is, as he says, a Constitutionalist. As the Constitution is currently framed, it is clear not just from the 10th amendment but from the overall text of the Constitution that the states were intended to have broad rights respecting their own laws. Essentially, the United States was to be exactly as its name implied: a confederation of sovereign states cooperating together under a central government. As Paul has said, if there's something wrong with this, then the Constitution has a way of handling that, too: amendments. Use 'em. If there's an amendment to the Constitution stating that the Supreme Court shall expressly have the power to rule in state matters, then he'll support it.
> Undermining modern medicine would destroy millions of lives in the most brutal fashion.
I don't see any more millions of lives being adversely affected than under our currently broken system. That said, I do support some form of guaranteed basic health care for all citizens. I've previously outlined why the current system will necessarily fail (in terms of game theory), and I've outlined a system which could be effective without requiring federal support.
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Ron Paul isn't anybody's dream candidate. I've yet to hear anybody say, "I agree with all of his positions". He's simply a tool that a very large number of people want to use to roll back what they see as a long series of disastrous development in American government and politics, and to that end, he could be very effective.
Our only alternative is to continue to support the current system, which is broken utterly beyond repair.
I've been saying that I really want to see Giuliani get the Presidency, because then we could go from horribly bad to completely absurd.
As usual, if you don't like a particular candidate, then put forward an alternative suggestion and defend him (or her).
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As for Obama ... well, he is the wild card, isn't he? He's shown enough strength of conviction to stand up to the mainstream press on a couple of issues. I liked the way he handled the idiotic "lapel pin" non-issue. He just might be able to get in without owing too many favors, which just might give him the maneuverability to fix a few things. And, though I try to pay about as much attention to race as to hair color, I would like to see, at last, a black person in the Presidency. It's past time for it.
That said, he hasn't had to spend enough time yet voting for or against particular hot-topic issues to really guess what he'd actually do while in office. But, I do know what everyone else would do, and certainly don't want them doing it.
In the absence of Paul -- and at this point I have no reason to believe he'll get the nod -- I'd vote for Obama, as well.
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As I said, I haven't done my research. For what it's worth, I agree that McCain is a bad candidate - and the "intelligent design" idiocy is something I hadn't heard and never want to support - but none of the Republican Party candidates are people I would support wholeheartedly. If nothing else, Ron Paul's willingness as a legislator to support flag-burning bans (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:h.j.res.80:), repeal governmental health protections for workers (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.2310:), and eliminate minimum wage (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:h.r.2962:) are offputting.
Would Ron Paul upset the establishment? I have no idea. But upsetting the establishment isn't a priority for me - I just want a government I can approve of.
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Gold standard: I will cop to not knowing much about industrial uses for gold. I nevertheless remain far from convinced that it is even feasible - for one thing, the amount of gold in circulation (http://www.gold.org/discover/knowledge/faqs/#3) is worth approximately $1 trillion U.S. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=(145%2C000+tons)+*+(238+dollars%2Ftroy+ounce)&btnG=Search) right now, and there's almost that much cash U.S. in circulation already. Besides, where would we get the gold?
Income tax: I posted a couple links in a comment upthread (http://peri-renna.livejournal.com/4301.html?thread=4557#t4557) - note particularly the bits about the budget. Like it or not, we can't cut one trillion U.S. dollars from the budget any time soon.
In addition, the whole "starve the beast" plan seems actively wrongheaded.
Supreme Court: Given Ron Paul's feelings on "the separation of church and state" (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/239/religious-liberty-thwarted-by-the-supreme-court/), I am inclined to impute entirely different motives. Furthermore, I am inclined to grant the Supreme Court power over state government - I would be interested to hear the reasons for opposing it.
Health care: If I'm bleeding to death, giving me a shot of metallic mercury won't help. I'll agree with you that the system is broken, but I'd prefer to support a plan like yours, one that has a reasonable chance of working, rather than Ron Paul's, which won't (and I mean can't).
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Gold Standard:
> I nevertheless remain far from convinced that it is even feasible...
I don't think it's feasible in the short term, but I do think that a plan could be created that would do it. My understanding is that there are some intermediate money systems that would put us on a kind of "partial" gold standard.
> ...for one thing, the amount of gold in circulation is worth approximately $1 trillion U.S. right now...
Mostly because the U.S. dollar has devalued sharply in the last several years. Deflation would fix that number in our favor.
Income Tax:
> I posted a couple links in a comment upthread...
Yeah, I was trying to avoid revisiting anonymous dude's arguments. I don't recall anything there that I specifically disagreed with, but, like you, I dislike dealing with people that won't put their name on what they say.
>Like it or not, we can't cut one trillion U.S. dollars from the budget any time soon.
Immediately, no, but it could be done. I have mixed feelings on this one, admittedly. As I mentioned earlier, I'm furious at the mishandling of funds and the continued upward spiral in taxes. I would like to believe that we could simply dramatically cut the income tax, and continue funding for projects where it made sense to do so. I think the libertarians are badly misguided when they think that free marketism will solve any social problem. That said, I also think that any amount of income tax leaves the door open to continued abuse, and eliminating it altogether more effectively shuts that door.
So, frankly, I don't have a good solution here. What I do know is that I'm sick of contributing 40% of my wages to a series of governments that spends way too much of that money -- my money -- on projects which I am vehemently opposed to. I have played around with the idea of voluntary taxes, and I think we have the technology now to make that feasible, but I don't know of anybody that's done that so I can't be sure that it would work. Essentially, wage earners would have the option of saying, "I want 25% of my taxes to go to Federal Public Health and Welfare, 30% to go to Federal Research, 15% for State and Local...", etc.
>In addition, the whole "starve the beast" plan seems actively wrongheaded.
Why? We're supposed to remove politicians from office when they act against the public interest or commit crimes. Why not say, "You used my tax money to wage an illegal war, so I'm denying you any further funding"?
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>Furthermore, I am inclined to grant the Supreme Court power over state government - I would be interested to hear the reasons for opposing it.
Well, that would change the structure of the United States government as outlined in the Constitution. That might be OK -- the Constitution, as a document, was designed to adapt to changing social conditions -- but the issue is kinda big. What kind of government structure do you want to live in?
I think the system, as it was established, was designed primarily to give people options. It was designed by people who mostly had fled other countries for one reason or another, governmental, bureaucratical, or religious. I think they wanted to set up a system where it was easy to find a home that they would be comfortable in.
For example, if abortion is important to you, then under a weak federal government you have the option of moving (or traveling to) a state whose laws and policies match your beliefs. Under a strong federal government, on the other hand, the same law gets enforced across all states, so now you're out of luck.
I am not in favor of a strong federal government for that reason more than any other. A few states have made some effort to establish their own identity -- New Hampshire, for example, as the home for those who care about liberty, and Massachusetts as the state for educated people -- and I would like to see more of that, not less. I'd like to see what shakes out if we give the states the freedom to establish more of their own policies, and maybe I could find a place to live that would be less objectionable. Instead, I have fewer options, thanks to a too-powerful federal government that can set state policy on everything from education to science to religion.
Health Care:
>I'll agree with you that the system is broken, but I'd prefer to support a plan like yours, one that has a reasonable chance of working, rather than Ron Paul's, which won't (and I mean can't).
...Yeah. I hate to agree on this, but, as a system, it can't work. It could work from the individual view point, where you'd still have the option of going to some facility that treated you in the way you wanted to be treated. If you're educated, then you might get effective treatment.
The cynical bits of me say that this is a great way to let all those people with no scientific understanding to self-select themselves out of the population, but, then the socially responsible part of me comes along and says that I don't really want to do that.
Tempting, though.